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Author Topic: Range Rules stickey  (Read 715 times)

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a_gunslinger

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Range Rules stickey
« on: July 05, 2017, 12:19:24 PM »

Are those current - 2012?  Thanks!
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Jim Kammerer

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Re: Range Rules stickey
« Reply #1 on: July 06, 2017, 11:29:28 AM »

nothing on the web site or forum has the correct range rules posted
« Last Edit: May 19, 2018, 04:35:41 PM by Jim Kammerer »
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Jim Kammerer -  EMAIL: jak71454@aol.com – M.R.&P.C. member - since 1995; N.R.A. member: Patron - Life; O.G.C.A. member: Life

Casper

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Re: Range Rules stickey
« Reply #2 on: May 12, 2018, 07:23:37 AM »

Was hoping to get some clarification on a rule. I shoot matches on the 50 to 200 yard range and most of the time everyone just pulls the bolt from their rifle during events. Every once and a while I will see someone that pulls their bolt and puts in a flag. Seems that these two are considered equal (pulling bolt=bolt back and flagged). I did some checking of the rules from the link you posted Jim and found the following:

Quote
Rule #9. When a cease fire is declared, immediately unload, open
the action, remove magazine, clear, and ground or bench all
firearms. Do not handle a firearm during a cease fire.
10. During a cease fire, Do Not handle any firearm while
others are downrange.

I must admit I feel this is an old version of the rule and is in need of updating.

<WARNING - RANT>
The reason for my concern and question is, I ran into an issue with this rule the other day with a over zealous member that insisted I use a flag. I told them I didn't have one (well I had one in my trunk) and I proceed to pull the bolt. The person kept at me and since they were scolding me about rules for cold range I assumed we were cold so, I removed my muffs to converse with them. Unfortunately for me the range was not actually cold and someone at the end of the range started firing. Of course I had no ear protection on now. As you know this is quite painful and caused me to get quite upset with this person that was scolding me over some "currently" frivolous rule for a cold range that wasn't implemented at that time. Not saying safety if frivolous just saying the rifle cannot fire with the bolt out and the range was hot at that time. I am all about safety, I cant imagine living with the fact of hurting/killing someone from my carelessness. Would really like some clarification on this and is "Bolt Out" acceptable as an equal to "Open Bolt - Flagged"?
</RANT>
« Last Edit: May 12, 2018, 10:42:46 AM by Casper »
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Jim Kammerer

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Re: Range Rules stickey
« Reply #3 on: May 12, 2018, 11:59:16 AM »

nothing on the web site has the correct range rules posted

Every once and a while I will see someone that pulls their bolt and puts in a flag. Seems that these two are considered equal (pulling bolt=bolt back and flagged).
THIS IS NOT CONSISTANT FROM RANGE TO RANGE AND EVEN MATCH TO MATCH.
Pins require that a flag be used in the .22 rifle only. Benchrest 22 requires a flag. The flags are available in the clubhouse.

The best way to avoid this in the future is to invoke SECTION II RULE #8:
When more than one shooter is present, designate a range safety officer if none is present or assigned.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2018, 09:04:51 AM by Jim Kammerer »
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Jim Kammerer -  EMAIL: jak71454@aol.com – M.R.&P.C. member - since 1995; N.R.A. member: Patron - Life; O.G.C.A. member: Life

GSMAlifer

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Re: Range Rules stickey
« Reply #4 on: May 13, 2018, 09:30:41 PM »

Casper:   Here's a simple solution to the "scolding" .......... ask him/her to show you the rule.  You should also carry a current copy of the club rules in your range bag and whatever it says should end the discussion.  I don't shoot matches, but maybe some match directors have additional safety procedures that your "scolder" thought was required throughout the club.

And FYI:   Neither of those range rules cited are current.  With my renewal, I was sent a pamphlet dated August 7, 2017.  However, the sections cited by Casper have the identical wording as my 2017 version.  So, as of that date, no flag was required, and in fact, "pulling the bolt" is not required either ........ just opening the action suffices.
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LC Meyer
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Jim Kammerer

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Re: Range Rules stickey
« Reply #5 on: May 14, 2018, 06:04:52 AM »

And FYI:   Neither of those range rules cited are current.  With my renewal, I was sent a pamphlet dated August 7, 2017.  However, the sections cited by Casper have the identical wording as my 2017 version. 
so now we have 3 different sets of rules one posted on the web site date 10/1/14 another referenced on this board dated 4/1/12 and one that is dated 8/7/17 which is not posted
« Last Edit: May 19, 2018, 09:15:43 AM by Jim Kammerer »
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Jim Kammerer -  EMAIL: jak71454@aol.com – M.R.&P.C. member - since 1995; N.R.A. member: Patron - Life; O.G.C.A. member: Life

Parabellum

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Re: Range Rules stickey
« Reply #6 on: May 14, 2018, 08:29:05 AM »

The board will address this issue at the next meeting.
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jgrote

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Re: Range Rules stickey
« Reply #7 on: May 18, 2018, 09:48:11 AM »

Casper,

I think I should introduce myself as I previously did on 5/5/18 at the Benchrest range event discussed below.  My name is John Grote, VP Property at MRPC, and my email is vp_property@miamirifle-pistol.org, or a person can click on my email link on the club website.   

When the Benchrest range attempted to have a cease fire the bolt on your rifle was closed.  As we were transitioning to a cease fire (which had not yet been called because a cold range cannot be called until all firearms are safe) I asked if you had an ECI.  I understood you to reply no.  I asked if you knew that an ECI is required per the current club rules and my understanding is you replied yes but you didn't have one.  Your assumption that the range was cold was in error when you removed your ear protection and I understand the rifle report disturbed you as it would anyone on a hot range without ear protection. I apologize for your misunderstanding regarding load rifle report but not for pointing out the safety violation of a club safety rule requiring an ECI in this case.  Safety violations are taken very seriously at the club.

The current club rules are dated August 7, 2017.  Item 4 under the "Bench Rest Range" section reads: "When a cease fire is declared, immediately unload, open the action, remove the magazine, insert empty chamber indicator, safety on, bench all firearms and step behind the yellow line, handling of any firearm during a cease fire is prohibited.'  A set of rules are provided with each annual renewal package sent to each member.  The club also encourages each member to take additional copies of the rules for their range bags, etc.  Additional copies of the club rules are always in a standing holder in the clubhouse next to the phone.

As an overview of the club rules there is a Section II: General Range Rule section and Section III: Specific Range Rules section.  Reason being many of the different ranges require special safety rules for that range environment. 

The principle behind the required ECI is to verify the chamber of the firearm is actually empty.  Simply removing the bolt does not verify whether or not a round is still in the chamber.  The requirement of the ECI provides a double redundancy and an indication to other shooters on the line: the action blocked open, there is no round left in the chamber, and the ECI sticks out as evidence of a safe fire arm to the other shooters who may by going down range during the cease fire.

There had been a previous event when you and I discussed the requirement of an ECI at the Benchrest within the last 6 months.  If you'd like to discuss this please contact me, my email is shown above.

I have often pointed out that this forum is very informal format and rarely used over the past couple years.  I rarely look at the forum but this subject was pointed out to me.  I also hope that if a member ever has a real concern that they would like addressed he/she would contact a board member.  This can be accomplished a number of ways.  The MRPC website has a contacts page with an email link to every board member.  The main phone number on the home page can be called and we revised this phone system so that a call will be answer or a message left will be returned within 48 hours.  Also, the monthly board meeting held on the first Wednesday of every month at 6:30pm at the clubhouse is open to club members.
If you’d like to discuss this further please contact me.  I hope this was helpful.

Best regards,
John Grote
MRPC – VP Property
vp_property@miamirifle-pistol.org
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Jim Kammerer

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Re: Range Rules stickey
« Reply #8 on: May 18, 2018, 11:52:15 AM »

The current club rules are dated August 7, 2017. 
THIS NEEDS TO BE POSTED ONLINE, the one posted there now is from 10/1/14.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2018, 07:22:56 AM by Jim Kammerer »
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Jim Kammerer -  EMAIL: jak71454@aol.com – M.R.&P.C. member - since 1995; N.R.A. member: Patron - Life; O.G.C.A. member: Life

Jim Kammerer

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Re: Range Rules stickey
« Reply #9 on: May 18, 2018, 11:57:44 AM »

I have often pointed out that this forum is very informal format and rarely used over the past couple years.
I don't think that anyone thought that it was a formal format; but it was meant to be a place where club members and others could post comments about a particular issue or topic and reply to other members postings.   And if thing were keep up to date and answered in a timely manner maybe more people would come back.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2018, 07:29:04 AM by Jim Kammerer »
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Jim Kammerer -  EMAIL: jak71454@aol.com – M.R.&P.C. member - since 1995; N.R.A. member: Patron - Life; O.G.C.A. member: Life

jgrote

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Re: Range Rules stickey
« Reply #10 on: May 18, 2018, 12:34:43 PM »

Jim, 

If you feel strongly about this I invite you to come to the next board meeting on Wednesday 6/6/2018 which starts at 6:30pm at the clubhouse.  The monthly board meeting is the place that club business is carried out.  The forum is very informal and is not regularly visited by the board nor is it a mechanism for any type of formal club actions and currently there are no plans to change this policy.  The forum is not nor are there any plans to make the forum anything more than a very informal dialog forum.  Resolving any type of club issue is not supported by the forum.  I'd be glad to discuss this further with you via email and not on the forum since again the forum is not a tool for club issue resolution.  My email is vp_property@miamirifle-pistol.org if you'd like to discuss the purpose of the forum further.  I hope this is helpful.

Best regards,
John Grote
MRPC - VP Property
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Casper

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Re: Range Rules stickey
« Reply #11 on: May 18, 2018, 05:37:17 PM »

I didn’t bring this up to become a formal issue. I posted the question here to keep it informal. My hopes were to clarify the many different rules found on the site vs what is given out vs practice at the range. I shoot all the BR events at MRPC and I cant think of a single time at all those events where I used a flag or asked to use one. I always have pulled the bolt. I have seen one or two others use a flag but because they are leaving their bolt inserted. Maybe this is because its up to the discretion of the person running the event? I guess I should get used to using a flag during practice. That’s fine with me I dont mind at all, its just nice to know what is expected of you and when.
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Jim Kammerer

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Re: Range Rules stickey
« Reply #12 on: May 19, 2018, 07:03:38 AM »

If you feel strongly about this....
I guess I would have somewhat strong feelings about THE CLUB'S SAFETY PROCEDURES and RANGE REGULATIONS being outdated on the web site for 10 months & the fact that I told people that the old one was the current one.

....I invite you to come to the next board meeting....
Why would I want to waste my time and the BOD's time to tell them the SAFETY PROCEDURES and RANGE REGULATIONS are out of date on the web site.  This should be a SIMPLE task for the forum admin and/or moderator to do without BOD getting involved. 


I'd be glad to discuss this further with you via email and not on the forum since again the forum is not a tool for club issue resolution. My email is vp_property@miamirifle-pistol.org if you'd like to discuss the purpose of the forum further.
I don't think that this has anything to do with "club issue resolution" and with over 700 views of this post, maybe some of those may be interested.

BTW, the description of where this is posted (Range Use) is:
Ask questions on the safe use of the ranges at MRPC. Find latest Range Rules posted here.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2018, 08:56:52 AM by Jim Kammerer »
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Jim Kammerer -  EMAIL: jak71454@aol.com – M.R.&P.C. member - since 1995; N.R.A. member: Patron - Life; O.G.C.A. member: Life

GSMAlifer

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Re: Range Rules stickey
« Reply #13 on: May 19, 2018, 08:55:01 AM »

I guess I would have somewhat strong feelings about THE CLUB'S SAFETY PROCEDURES and RANGE REGULATIONS being outdated on the web site for 10 months & the fact that I told people that the old one was the current one.
C'mon, Jim, if you're miffed because you gave people the wrong info, that's on you.  Like all the rest of us, you received a NEW copy of the club's rules with your membership renewal.  If you don't pay attention to the dates on the pamphlets, it YOUR error, no one else is to blame for you not being up to date.

Why would I want to waste my time and the BOD's time to tell them the SAFETY PROCEDURES and RANGE REGULATIONS are out of date on the web site.  This should be a SIMPLE task for the forum admin and/or moderator to do without BOD getting involved.
 
You're right, Jim, it should be a simple task for the forum administrator.  And it would also have been a simple task for you to just email the forum administrator directly and point out the discrepancy, once someone else let you know you were using an out of date set of rules.  Although, no one has addressed whether the web site's rules really are out of date, because none of us (you, Casper and myself) were looking at the correct section:  the Bench Rest Range Rules!

I don't think that this has anything to do with "club issue resolution" and with over 700 views of this post, maybe some of those may be interested in my thoughts on the subject.
Well, at least one that we know of.

Let's summarize what we have learned here:   Casper was wrong about the B.R. rule on ECIs, Casper & Jim discovered they were using the wrong set of rules and are unhappy about it, V.P. Grote fleshed out the story behind the original post and Meyer stuck his nose into the fray and now feels like an idiot for doing so. 

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LC Meyer
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